Wednesday, June 26, 2019

When no one answers an argument

What with Gillian Triggs coming out and (apparently - I have only seen extracts) making some dubious broad brush statements yesterday about religious beliefs and employment, I note that no one in my last thread about the Folau controversy has answered this point.   So let's bump it up to a post.

Who really thinks that those who are painting this as a right to religious expression would be donating money if it were this:   an Islamic sportsman with a high profile and social media accounts who used them to support things that he argues as a conservative Muslim are genuinely, religiously justified positions with plenty of tradition behind them, such as:  it would be fair enough for the law to allow for gays to be stoned to death - such a scare would help some save their souls from Hell;  that the death penalty for Muslim apostasy is warranted; that physical chastisement of a wife can be warranted and reasonable; child marriage isn't a big deal.

The obvious point is this:  some religiously justified beliefs are readily capable of holding reasonable offence for small or large parts of a modern Western society.   A company engaged in a business which wants broad support from its society should generally not have the right to discriminate on the grounds of an employees personal beliefs expressed in the private sphere, but are culture war warriors really trying to tell me that they think my hypothetical Muslim sportsman should also be free to express all his religiously justified beliefs in the public sphere via social media and it would not risk tarnishing the image of the sport that is employing him?     

Those who are defending Folau on this are simply drawing the line, as it suits their prejudice and background, as to where offensiveness in relation to religious statements about homosexuality should lie.

And yes, I know there are plenty of gay folk who go out of their way to find offence, in an irritating manner too, and most are not concerned that conservative Christians are right about their destination in the afterlife.    But nor do I dismiss the fact that Christian (indeed, even Catholic) statements about the inherently disordered nature of homosexuality can cause some angst to the self image of people (mainly young people) worried about their sexuality, especially if they come from a conservative  background.  

I therefore do not consider it unreasonable that, in these circumstances, a sporting body require that its generously paid players not engage in religiously motivated conservative commentary about the nature of homosexuality in the public sphere.   As I understand it, Folau had been warned along those lines too before signing his current contract, but he chose to do so anyway.

This means it is a contractual matter, and he may or may not win on the contractual merits.   He should not win on the wrong headed grounds that it should be open slather for any sportsman to be able to express any view under cloak of religious freedom.

PS:   I also think quite a few sports and companies are over-compensating on the matter of support for gay folk.  I would really like it if we could move past gay pride weeks and events, and find much of the public demonstration that is "pro diversity" to be an embarrassment, with gay pride parades frequently featuring fetishes, for example.   I am in no way "all in" with support for the state of gay social politics as it is currently in society.   But none of that changes my view on the Folau matter.


34 comments:

Not Trampis said...

Sorry but if something is said away from work and it is not illegal what right does an employer have to sack you.

They might grow some balls and say what he has said is his belief and it has nothing to do with his work.

no-one in this instance can advocate stoning a person to death in Australia

Are you seriously suggesting Rughy Australia or any other organisation will oversee any belief of who he goes into heaven and hell.

Steve said...

OK, Homer, so you think RA should not have a problem with the image of the game if they employ a Muslim player who goes on social media morally supporting ISIS and wishing destruction of Israel, claiming Koran support for these views.

Yep, can't see that an issue that would disturb fans or sponsors, especially Jewish ones, at all. Or if it does disturb them, it's a simple matter that freedom of religious expression overrides RA's interests in the image of their game?

Have I got that right?

Not Trampis said...

No you have not. you do understand what illegal means

Steve said...

I don't think it is illegal to couch moral support carefully: "While I do not condone Australians getting directly involved, I personally think that the establishment of the Caliphate in at least the Middle East is something the Prophet would have wanted, and to that extent I morally support the cause of ISIS within Syria. Let me quote the Koran..."


Not Trampis said...

quote the koran and see if he is correct. If he is not watch out.

As it is it would be getting very close to supporting a terrorist group me thinks.

nothing like the folau eposode

Steve said...

Or: "I know people will think this is a controversial view, but let me quote the Prophet: 'Judgment Day will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Jews will hide behind the rocks and the trees, but the rocks and the trees will say: Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him — except for the gharqad tree, which is one of the trees of the Jews.' Let's hope we live to see that day."

RA: "People, people: it's a genuinely held religious view on his private Facebook account, backed up by the direct words of his book of faith. Not of our concern."

Not Trampis said...

Well that is a statement to kill jews on judgement day so of no consequence.

If it were a command to kill jews today it would be against the law

Steve said...

Heh. I think you're denying the obvious: religious views can reasonably offend a substantial part of modern Australian society, no matter how well based in sacred books or tradition, and therefore an employer (especially one dependent on "star" players) can reasonably require such views are not overtly publicised by the player in social media.

Not Trampis said...

I think you are missing the point.
It is reasonably easy for a competent CEO to say those views are his/hers and were made as a private person.
nothing to do with the company. they might even invoke voltaire

Anonymous said...

Stepford, you idiot. Support for extreme Islam is not the same as someone advocating support for Christianity. Furthermore, the book Folau quotes from is the book that we use to swear people in, in court or senior government positions like the PM.

More to the point , the Bible is historically anchored to our western culture whereas the Koran is not.

Taking an argument to the stupidest degree possible is not a smart way to argue,

Steve said...

JC, you count as one of those people with more money than sense, I see.

My argument is very relevant when you have Mark Latham saying he is going to move in NSW for legislation for protection of religious freedom.

If he is comfortable with employers having to put up with Islamic employees ranting on social media while in their company's uniform about how they can't wait for Jew killing judgement day, well I suppose that's fine.

I'm betting he hasn't thought it through, because he is blinded by wanting to protect Christian religious views only.

Jason Soon said...

these are fucking fascists https://theconversation.com/explainer-could-the-australian-christian-lobby-be-investigated-for-its-israel-folau-fundraiser-119457

Not Trampis said...

yep,
It is remarkable how intolerant these tolerant people are

Steve said...

I'm much more upset that the IPA Research Trust is a charity.

Steve said...

Oddly enough, the on line poll being run by news.com.au indicates a public alignment on the issues that is about right -

a majority say it was right that he was sacked (pretty slim majority though)

a much bigger majority say he should have funded his own court case about it

and a bigger majority again say it was wrong for ANZ to complain about his wife supporting him.

The wisdom of crowds, or something?

Not Trampis said...

on lime polls are worth a squirt in statistical terms.

No randon samples

Steve said...

I know that Homer. I think readers of news.com.au probably are more likely to be a bit to the Right of centre, on average; hence the results showing still a majority support his sacking is interesting.

Not Trampis said...

Steve,

Have you ever read any articles on this issue there?

It is very anti-Folau

Steve said...

Yeah, true: I have read comments at Catallaxy that, for whatever reason, the Daily Tele has been very anti Folau. Hard to know why.

Nonetheless, I would say that news.com.au generally doesn't particularly attract Lefties - it's too tabloid-like, and I usually look at it once a day, but don't follow many links from it. I did join in the online poll on Folau, though :)

Not Trampis said...

not my original ideas but brilliant

Imagine getting upset at some-one for claims the God you do not believe in said in the book you do not read that unless you repent of the sin you do not care about you will go to a place you do not think exists.
This is Australia

GMB said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Bird

What's your opinion on global warming as Steve is a global warming "passionista"?

Jason Soon said...

Steve
wait for me to read Bird's wisdom before you remove it

thanks

Steve said...

Jason, I play it by ear as to whether the content has too much offensive content or not to warrant immediate removal. Usually it the more direct references to Jews killing and enslaving us stuff that calls for no time wasted in deleting.

GMB said...

Global warming is obvious science fraud. Steve isn't advocating we go along with it because of its scientific merit. He's fulfilling the inbred troglodyte tribal imperative. You know if it wasn't for rhinoplasty we'd realise that we were being oppressed by gargoyles.

Steve said...

I haven't noticed any particular preponderance of Jewish names amongst famous climate scientists, Graeme. I will regret this, I know, but do you care to explain how the vast Jewish conspiracy out to crush the globe into submission has managed to capture so many gentile scientists into the scheme?

Anonymous said...

Stepford

Stop deleting GB's posts. They are offensive when he gets on his jewish paranoia nonsense, but first and foremost, in among all of this, I believe GB is a paranoid conspiracy theory monger. He doesn't dislike Jews simply for who they are. No, GB has been brainwashed by internet sites to believe Jews are harmful. In other words his primary motivation is to prevent harm in his lunacy and doesn't use those conspiracies to quench or an excuse for his dislike. It's the other way around with the bald fathead.

Steve said...

I do not follow that poorly worded comment at all. Seems like its arguing that because people believe a false conspiracy first, their hatred of the people who are the villain in the story should be excused as a rational response to a false premise?

You don't think the victems of such promoted falsehoods should be offended and not care that the lie is repeated?

Yeah, Jews should have just sucked it up over the centuries because it's always open to choose not to take offence?

If that's what you mean, its ridiculous.

GMB said...

"but do you care to explain how the vast Jewish conspiracy out to crush the globe into submission has managed to capture so many gentile scientists into the scheme?...."

By filtering them. By persecuting those who don't play ball and by rewarding those that do. The essence behind control is to force people to believe things that cannot be true. The system of science control, in modern form, started with aether denial. Here people were forced to disbelieve something that was already known to be true. Then under the Einstein banner they beat into the culture, through career persecution and worse, a series of propositions that could not be true under any circumstance. So what you had, well before you got to the CO2-warming lies, was a pre-existing order of strict science control.

"but do you care to explain how the vast Jewish conspiracy out to crush the globe into submission has managed to capture so many gentile scientists into the scheme?...."

In some ways a question like this ought not be answered. Since the question has no scientific merit. Science isn't about consensus, its about evidence. You haven't seen any evidence for this transparent racket, I haven't, and you cannot find anyone who has. The whole thing is reliant on faked data. You have one outfit pretending to be three different outfits, pretending each to be a subset of another outfit. The subgroup in NOAA, the subgroup in NASA and that group out at Hadlee are one organisation, all busily rorting the data.

Convert your question into a logical argument? Just for the exercise of it? Just so we can see the power of the question once converted to argumentation? We see that it has no merit at all. You posed your argument as a question so that people would not laugh at you.

If you are seeing any data where the 30's isn't the hottest decade THATS RIGGED DATA. Its not okay to used rigged data. Even if you have to then rely on very sparse data, thats still a lot better than rigged data. Any attempt to get the miscreants over at real-climate to use real data will fall flat. Any attempt to get them to use a CO2 record, either measured, or validly reconstructed, would get you banned.

You haven't seen a valid CO2 record or reconstruction, unless you saw the Beck data. You haven't seen a graph depicting unrigged data unless you've seen the United States raw data. So if you haven't seen those two how could you even attempt to relate the one to the other and establish first correlation then causation? You see the Jew Michael Mann's faked hockey stick and you think its an upward spiral towards Venus. But Venus is a new planet cooling down. Its heated from the inside out. Its not hard to find non-Goddard NASA admitting that Venus gives off far more heat than it receives. Which refutes the idea totally that its surface heat is about greenhouse.


GMB said...

"Yeah, Jews should have just sucked it up over the centuries because it's always open to choose not to take offence? "

This is a fake view of history. Jews are the persecutors and not the persecuted. The persecution myth is a tribal tick used to disarm their future victims. They were kicked out 109 times. Which means they were welcomed just as often. Thats treating them with kids gloves. Anyone else who tried the things that they have done would have been redirected to the ash-heap of history. Consider the mass-murder of gentiles under Jewish communism? And then the way they got off the hook for that using World War II. Pure Jewish reversalism.

In World War II the German civilians were subject to a holocaust. Just reverse the story and that is what is given to us. Their tricks are few and childish. But they always work.

Anonymous said...

Stepford

I posted the previous comment from my iphone and didn't proof read. Bird is a maniac but he means no ill will. Leave him be.

Anonymous said...

Bird, you imbecile, stop it with the Jewish thing. I warned you over a decade ago to stop hanging around stupid sites because they would invariably lead you to anti-Jewish crap. And I was right. Get a freaking grip.

GMB said...

We want to stop the idea that Steve's argument has not been engaged. Professor Quiggin engaged this argument very well and clearly. Sticking up for Australian values in the face of this galloping corporate communist-elitist encroachment.

My engagement with Steves argument went something like this ..... The Digital Stasi: Invalidly gained fractional reserve wealth buys up all the main organs of communication and establishes a dictatorship that superficially looks almost free right up until the mass culling begins locally. (The culling has already started in the Middle East and North Africa)

The Randian contention that free speech is only free speech on ones own property, and an extension of contractual undertakings, must therefore be resisted to the maximum degree, since it will continue our current level of enslavement, make it total, and then lead to what the (elite) Jews and oligarchy did to the Soviet and Chinese peoples under communism.

Thanks for sticking up for me JC. But when there are words that people are afraid to utter, they need to repeated until they lose their power. I didn't figure this out. It was the magnificent Jewish comedian Lenny Bruce that brought this reality to my attention (via the fine Jewish actor Dustin Hoffman). When I say "the Jews" I really only mean a tiny minority of elite Jew pigs, but the Jews more generally, neocon types, and the "liberal" left do tend to passively go along with the agenda that these people set for them.

But to always make all these caveats every time one writes anything ... this shows fear and goes against the Lenny Bruce idea. Plus Jews have to break the historical cycle and reform their bad habits if we don't want this endless cycle of abuse (by them) and then punishment of the least culpable amongst them. So "the Jews" will have to do for now as shorthand.

GMB said...

Here is where Steve wants to take us https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbEsC9qgsGI