Like this makes sense:
Although President Obama opposes the prosecution of CIA operatives who carried out the most controversial interrogations of suspected terrorists during the Bush administration, Obama suggested today that he had not ruled out action against Justice Department officials who authorized the tactics....Update: further interesting details on this in The Guardian version of the story:
Obama said that "with respect to those who formulated those legal decisions, I would say that that is going to be more of a decision for the attorney general within the parameters of various laws, and I don't want to prejudge that. I think that there are a host of very complicated issues involved there."
The White House chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, said only three days ago that the administration did not favour prosecutions of those who had devised the policy, and Gibbs echoed that on Monday.Cheney has a point. Surely most people are surprised by the number of times some detainees were waterboarded. Unless you believe that individual CIA operatives just started doing it for fun (a wildly improbably assumption, given the amount of paperwork that appears to surround these cases), they clearly must have been under the impression that something was to be gained (or was being gained) in the process.
Obama's about-turn may reflect the sense of outrage, at least among US liberals, over further details of CIA interrogations that have emerged during the last few days, including the use of waterboarding against one detainee 183 times. Or it could be purely political, a retaliation for sniping against him by Cheney.
In an interview with Fox News on Monday night, Cheney said he was disturbed by the release of the previously classified memos. He called for the declassification of other memos that he said would illustrate the value of intelligence gained from the interrogations.
"I know specifically of reports that I read, that I saw, that lay out what we learned through the interrogation process and what the consequences were for the country," he said.
Of course, one of the common arguments against torture is that it does not produce reliable information in any event. But is that necessarily true? The CIA and intelligence services of all countries have a lot of experience in the field: do they like people to know how successful it can be?
There is probably a lot of information out there on the issue, but I don't have time to go looking for it now.
One other point I find curious about this whole matter is that, if the one of the interrogation "benefits" of waterboarding is that the victim thinks they are about to die, surely that aspect of it decreases over time if you've been subjected to it a dozen times and you still haven't died? Or does the psychological impact of it still increase over time, just out of fear of undergoing yet another round of an extremely unpleasant procedure?
Going back to Obama's flying the kite on Justice Department prosecutions, Powerline has this to say (and of course I agree):
The idea of prosecuting a lawyer because a wrote a legal analysis with which the current Attorney General disagrees is so outrageous that I can't believe it would be seriously considered.UPDATE: some commentary on the issue of whether torture works.
I also tend to agree with Tigerhawk's take on this: if you have caught a terrorist who is prepared to kill thousands of civilians, it is surely helpful for him to at least believe that he is about to be tortured. Obama has effectively removed that fear, and that is not a good thing for the future security of his nation.
UPDATE 2: The New York Times reports that Obama's own intelligence director, Admiral Blair, supports the Dick Cheney position that important information was disclosed from waterboarding (or other techniques authorised by the Bush administration). I think we can assume Cheney was telling the truth.
4 comments:
What if the legal opinion was one that said torture can be legalised if we describe it as something else.
It does appear that Obama is at pains not to go after the previous administration on such matters and I suppose that protects the little fish from being scapegoated for the crimes of the administration.
Out of interest, can you think of any instances where a legal opinion used to condone illegal activities by a previous government should be actionable. The lawyers seem to have been up to their necks in justifying torture.
I think its a hypothetical question, as no lawyer is going to write an opinion that directly says "well, we all know that this is illegal, but you can pretend it's not if you call it this.."
It will probably dismay you to know that I broadly agree with Alan Dershowitz's argument that the US should acknowledge that it can use non-lethal torture - specifically authorised by the President - if the circumstances warrant it.
Most historical cases that people like to point as being examples where the US was happy to see others prosecuted (for waterboarding, for example)were not cases where you could say it was warranted. For example, I don't see any reason why regular soldiers or civilians should ever be subjected to it in a "classic" Geneva convention war time scenario. It is not a matter that should be allowed as routine part of war, nor criminal investigation. However, terrorists who attack another country operate in a moral area that falls between "normal" war and routine criminal activity, and the Geneva conventions never envisaged it.
Dershowitz puts his argument here:
http://tinyurl.com/2l3d6c
Of course, if it were conclusively shown that torture had never worked, there would never be justification for using it. However, as I say, the fact that intelligence agencies keep using it suggests that it gets good information at least in some cases.
Thanks Steven.
I was actually interested as I know international law is something you know about, rather than just my usual stirring.
It just seemed from reading around that the lawyers in this case were cheerleading the torture and I wondered if lawyers are as accountable for their actions in such circumstances as other professions are. There is talk about how doctors could ethically/legally be involved since they apparently stepped in at various points to stop the torture.
Is there evidence for torture as providing reliable intelligence?
It seems when Americans are tortured they are forced to make "false" testimony that they are spies etc.
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